Lifestyle & Travel

Should the Bee Gees star Robin Gibb eat some eggs and butter?

Should the Bee Gees star Robin Gibb eat some eggs and butter?
October 26th, 2011
Author: Philip Ridley

It is very sad to see talented Robin Gibb looking so gaunt, having to cancel a meeting with David Cameron after suffering inflammation of the colon, particularly after seeing his equally talented twin brother, Maurice die of an intestinal illness in 2003.

That this can strike down pop icons is a sobering reminder to the rest of us that the West is currently suffering a pandemic of digestive disorders during the last few decades. It is no co-incidence that this has happened since the US and then the whole of the West adopted the very politically correct low fat, high carbohydrate diets epitomised most by vegans such as Robin Gibb. Unfortunately this problem will only become worse if government succeed in taxing and regulating saturated fat. The vegan diet wreaks havoc with digestion for a number of reasons, which can be resolved by the introduction of nourishing, traditional foods.

Animal Fats

Animal fats and cholesterol provide strength to our cells unlike the fragile polyunsaturated vegetable and seed oils prevalent in a vegan diet, which produce trans-fats and free radicals when cooked with and processed into products like margarine. These, consumed in excess, cause cell walls to loose their structural integrity. It should therefore be no surprise that a diet low in animal fats can exacerbate inflammation to the gut wall. Animal fats are also very easy to digest. Raw egg yolk in particular doesn’t require any digestion and has all the nutrients the body requires.

“Good broth will resurrect the dead,” S.American proverb

One of the saddest absences from the vegan diet are the traditional sauces seen in all traditional cultures, made from boiling up bones to make nourishing broth, soup and gravies. Not only does broth avoid waste, but it provides exactly the nourishment required to repair a damaged gut by providing all of the building blocks necessary for the rapidly growing cells of the gut lining. In particular, gelatine in broth has a very soothing effect and aids digestion. Unfortunately, commercial stock cubes do not have the same affect.

Too many carbohydrates

The low fat diet is unfortunately very high in carbohydrates. This is a particular problem for those with intestinal disorders because excess carbs, particularly if processed and refined, feed pathogens such as candida. Treatment often requires a complete absence of starchy carbohydrates.

Soy Alert!

Many vegans are told to replace animal protein with liberal quantities of soy. Unfortunately, soy contains trypsin inhibitors that inhibit protein digestion and physic acid which inhibits the digestion of minerals, stripping the body of them. In addition, non-organic soy is often genetically modified to tolerate extra pesticides, which also damage digestion.

Soy, in the east, is traditional fermented for between 1 and 3 years to make it digestible, and even then, it is consumed in small quantities, fermented and raw as a probiotic. I only know of one company in Britain producing soy in the proper manner, called Source Foods.

Too many poorly prepared whole grains

Similar to soy, all other grains, pulses and legumes contain phytic acid. However, these can be removed by soaking, sprouting and fermenting them. That is why grandma soaked her porridge and muesli over night. Sourdough bread is an example of an appropriately fermented grain product. Unfortunately, many vegans and vegetarians are consuming copious amounts of whole grains, legumes and pulses without knowing that failing to prepare them properly will cause great harm to their digestive tracts.

Raw Veganism

A major fashion in the vegan world is to have as much of your food raw. Unfortunately vegetables, salad and temperate fruits are very low in digestive enzymes and provide little to no probiotics. I have met many people who have caused untold damage to the digestive tract consuming copious amounts of raw vegetables, even consuming raw root vegetables.

But there is good news, vegetables, if they aren’t cooked, can be fermented to make them digestible and potent probiotics, such as sauerkraut, which can do wonders to any digestive disorder. In fact, utilising the gut, brain connection, < Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride > gaps.me > uses them along with broth and natural animal fats to effectively treat mental disorders, from autism to depression. I know of an artisan producer of fermented vegetables called Cultured Probiotics.

Natural animal fats and saturated tropical fats like coconut oil complement probiotics when treating the gut because they are anti-microbial.

Raw Milk

Most of the lactose intolerance suffered today is caused by pasteurisation because it destroys the probiotics and digestive enzymes naturally occurring in raw milk, as reported earlier this year in Radio 4’s The Food Program episode about milk aired earlier this year. Raw whole milk, cream and butter from grass fed cows provides the body all it requires and there are examples of people living solely on it!

In fact, Dr Weston A. Price found primitive Swiss villages thriving on diets almost entirely comprised of raw milk products in the 1930s. Visit realmilk.com to find a local source of raw milk.

The ethics of consuming animal


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Animal consumption is a fact of life for health and ecological reasons. Whenever we banish animals from our farms, turning our backs on traditional crop rotation, we make ourselves dependent on artificial fertiliser and don’t provide our soil the periodic grazing periods it requires to regenerate. In addition, animals only provide us liberal quantities of vitamins and the proper omega 3 – 6 balance if the animals are eating their natural foods outside, exposed to sunlight. Our health, the health of the soil and the health of our environment are therefore dependent on healthy free range animals and high standards in animal welfare.

Philip Ridley is the London Chapter Leader of the Weston A. Price Foundation. (www.westonaprice.org/london)

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109 Responses to “Should the Bee Gees star Robin Gibb eat some eggs and butter?”

  1. luvourmother says:

    This article is full of misinformation that is not supported by scientific data or studies. The ADA recommends a vegan diet as a way to manage diabetes, as well as supports a vegan diet as a healthy choice for people in all stages of life.

  2. Root Striker says:

    I am not an expert on diet other than I eat every day of my life.

    For me, everyone should be encouraged to eat a healthy balanced and natural diet.

    Unless of course there is a good medical reason not to.

    It worries me when healthy people are encourages to eat ‘altered’ foods or miss out somthing in favour of a pill or potion.

    Why? Because it puts the money ahead of health.

  3. How does the ADA explain away the need for vitamin B6 (only from raw animal foods) for carbohydrate metabolism? And the issue that a vegan diet tends to be packed with carbohydrates? No, veganism is one of the most terrible solutions to diabetes, which requires a high fat, low carbohydrate diet. Barry Groves has a good website on that: http://www.diabetes-diet.org.uk/

  4. luvourmother says:

    Vitamin B6 is in vegetables like cabbage, pumpkin, and spinach. You may be thinking of B12 which is in fortified foods like cereal, and nutritional yeast as well as in foods like marmite and sea vegetables.

    Vegan diets can be low carb, especially raw vegan: nuts, seeds, and vegetables.

    Vegan and vegetarian diets are a good way to prevent and manage diabetes: http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/planning-meals/meal-planning-for-vegetarians/?utm_source=WWW&utm_medium=ContentPage&utm_content=AskTheDietitian&utm_campaign=CON

  5. Unfortunately, nuts and seeds provide primarily omega 6 oils, and we need more omega 3 in our diet. This comes primarily from grass fed animals and wild fish. I high fat vegan diet therefore causes overload of omega 6, except when your fat is coming from tropical fats like coconut oil.

    Animal foods are our best source of B6, which destroyed by heat. You simply won’t get enough from plant foods, and many of these are indigestible raw.

    Even the true B12 is difficult to assimilate because it is a very large molecule which is absorbed by attaching to a protein called the intrinsic factor. The intrinsic factor is secreted by the same cells in the stomach that secrete hydrochloric acid. Thus, although B12 deficiency is common in vegetarians, it can also occur in those who eat meat if they have difficulty producing hydrochloric acid—a condition that frequently occurs in the elderly.

    B12 is virtually destroyed pasteurization so if you’re a vegetarian depending on milk products for most of your animal foods it’s very important to have raw milk and raw cheese. I would never tell anyone they had to eat meat if they did not believe in eating meat. I’m not here to convince you you have to go eat a steak every day. This is not what our diet is about; rather it’s about a judicious selection of high quality animal foods and if you’re a vegetarian you’ll need very very high quality raw dairy products in your diet, along with high quality eggs. Compulsory pasteurization laws actually take away the religious rights of vegetarians—and of anybody who believes that they should only put pure foods into their body.

  6. [...] way to gain publicity. These people are the Scientology of nutrition. (Thanks, Cindy.) Link. Spread the [...]

  7. Lia says:

    Before you CRITICIZE, seek first to ANALYZE what you do not understand.

  8. Beard1 says:

    I have trained with Vegan body builders and they are only capable of building a very limited amount of muscle mass.

    Their limitations in building muscle suggests Veganism is not conducive for proper growth, it is no a healthy diet.

    Even had a go myself and had to stop weight training for 4 months.

    Your average Vegan uses artificially processed soy products to supplement his diet to emulate meat and keep the protein cravings at bay.

    Its not so bad if your an 8 stone animal rights fanatic who wears hemp hoodies who does no manual work.

    If Veganism is a natural diet that our bodies are suited to, try living off the land from what grows on the land.

    Can’t be done.

    I’m with Mr Ridley on this one, give me a cow, wipe it’s backside and stick it one the plate

  9. luvourmother says:

    Vegan sources of Omega 3’s: walnuts, flax seeds, chia seeds, grape leaves, peppers and the list goes on. Coconut oil and coconut butter are also ingredients commonly used in vegan cooking and baking.

    B6 is effected by heat, which is why vegetable sources are superior because they can be eaten raw unlike some animal source where cooking is required for safety reasons. Bananas provide more B6 than chicken, turkey and beef : http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=108
    Chickpeas also provide more B6 than meat sources: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitaminb6

    The prevalence of B12 deficiencies between vegetarians and omnivores are the same. No need to drink milk or eat eggs for B12, just eat fortified foods like cereal, marmite, and nutritional yeast. Milk is not healthy for humans to consume.

  10. Unfortunately, many cows are fed soy feed, but you can still get grass fed beef online and at farmers markets.

  11. Beard1 says:

    “Milk is not healthy for humans to consume.”

    Brainwashed b******t, Soya milk is the killer.

  12. Beard1 says:

    LOM, those men are ripped but do not have anything I would call overly impressive muscle mass but if your a Vegan they probably look huge.

  13. Many people can thrive for a while as a vegan, but eventually your stores of B12 run down, and the real risk is providing enough nutrients to bring up healthy, happy children. For that, you need eggs, butter, that kind of thing.

  14. Jerry Friedman says:

    Disappointing to see the slander against veganism. Vegan body builders and other athletes abound including Olympians like Carl Lewis and Seba Johnson. Seba is a life-long vegan so claiming that veganism cannot be sustained is a theory that cannot be sustained.

    A peer-reviewed study shows a low-fat vegan diet is better for diabetics than the diet recommended by the American Diabetic Association. http://www.pcrm.org/good-medicine/2006/autumn/targeting-diabetes-groundbreaking-pcrm-study-shows

    If the article’s author and commenters want to promote truth, do your research before making such ridiculous accusations against an animal-free diet. The anti-vegan propaganda here lacks immensely in research and facts.

  15. Eric says:

    It’s true that vegans need B12 supplementation. But it is commonly acknowledged that vegans can get all the protein and nutrients they need from a well balanced plant based diet. I’m a strict vegan, am 52 years old, and can run a 5K in under 19 minutes. I have more muscle and am in better shape than anyone I know. What do I do for B12? I take a subligual B12 supplement, a 3 month supply costs less than $20. I have a full spectrum blood test twice each year and my total cholesterol is less than 140, my blood pressure is 96/60, my glucose is completely normal, and I have no vitamin deficiencies.

    The author of this article is truly misinformed and biased, and should educate himself on veganism through those involved in my lifestyle.

  16. Here is the Weston A. Price Foundation’s website tour for vegetarians, which we believe can work for most, so long as you have liberal quantities of egg and raw dairy for grass fed free range animals:

    http://www.westonaprice.org/about-the-foundation/vegetarian-tour

  17. Luvourmother says:

    Vegan since 1922:
    http://www.opposingviews.com/i/loreen-dinwiddie-108-credits-vegan-diet-for-longevity

    Many people can thrive for a while as a vegan, but eventually your stores of B12….”.

    S

  18. Mike the vegan says:

    The pejorative misuse of the term “politically correct” should be everyone’s first cue to what kind of article this is. Second: Promotion of Natasha Campbell-McBride. Radical promises to cure autism and depression with bone broth?

    http://autoimmunethyroid.wordpress.com/category/how-to-be-scientific/quacktitioners/probiotics-dont-work/
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/gaps_in_a_doctors_reasoning_about_vaccines.php

    If you think that’s going to help you, I’ve got a good counter-offer for magic beans.

  19. By way of an olive branch, you can now purchase slaughter free milk in the UK, so you can still be a vegan and have dairy: http://www.ahimsamilk.org/

    Of course, if you have your own chickens, you can avoid slaughtering them and have eggs.

  20. Cesar Carvalho says:

    Misinformation galore! I won’t spend time debuking each point of this anti-vegan propaganda. I’ll just say that I have Crohn’s disease (an auto-immune disease which causes painful inflammation all over the gastrointestinal tract) and it FINALLY went on remission under a vegan diet (which I started for ethical reasons and against my doctor recommendations).

    No, it wasn’t just the vegan diet, but a balanced vegan diet that excludes specific foods to which I developed some level of allergy – something expected after many years suffering from Crohn’s and the inevitable leaky gut syndrome.

    Funny thing is I had trouble with constipation (and, thus, I high probability to develop diverticulitis and colon cancer) when I was a meat eater which also went away with my “havoc wreaking” vegan diet. Not to mention my perfect blood tests in some many years.

    So, yeah, thanks for playing, but try again.

  21. Administrator says:

    People with medical problems should eat an amended diet in accordance with a doctor’s recommendations.

    But those ordinary healthy people should eat a natural balanced and healthy diet or suffer the consequences. They should not be misled by fads.

  22. Luvourmother says:

    Vegans dont eat milk or eggs.

    Milk is unhealthy raw or not. Eggs are not necessary in a healthy balanced vegan diet. A balanced vegan diet is healthy for people in all stages of life, from kids to seniors.

  23. I went on a vegan diet and felt great…for a while but I also cut out processed food……after much tweaking of the diet I found that it wasn’t the vegan diet that made me feel great it was cutting out the processed food. Since altering my diet to a caveman diet but with animal fats I feel even better…all my ailments have disappeared and I agree with Admin that persons with medical ailments should seek the advice of a doctor but I would add caution seeing as much of the advice the doctor gives can be based on compromised science from the food industries. Surely a natural diet is better for you that one is not natural.

    The question is this…..is the vegan diet a natural one? I agree with beard1 who makes a good point in so much as the vegan diet does not appear to be natural seeing as the bulk of the produce which constitutes the vegan diet requires large scale agricultural farming.and not from a natural environment which has never sustained enough produce to accommodate communities of human beings.

    But picking up on Admin’s point, I remember going to the doctor and I happened to mention I was going on a vegan diet…..he described the diet as a dangerous fad and not one to be endorsed. As for vegan body building I would say that I take my hats off to those guys because the quantity of protein is not there to build muscle as fast……………I had a go at it myself and it was not good and very expensive……..if I was in the wild trying to sustain a high muscle mass then I would not be able to do so by eating the limited quantities of nuts and pulses at my disposal.

    That’s my opinion on the matter……..hey I could be wrong but I stand by Phil on this one simply because these days I put on muscle just by looking at a set of dumbbells and since changing my diet to a high fat/mostly natural diet I no longer have palpitations, I have lost nearly 2 stone and for some reason my immune system is on top form for a 38 year old smoker who is partial to rough cider. I recently went to my local butchers near Brecon and the butcher there is in his late 70s yet he is strong as an ox, very alert yet lives on a traditional Welsh diet of meat, eggs, milk, with a few veg.

    I wouldn’t like to get in a fight with him….

  24. Joseph Espinosa says:

    We can live quite healthfully without consuming animal products. Causing others to suffer and die for our pleasure is clearly a sign off poor mental health.

  25. I was a vegetarian myself once, so I do connect with the vegan objectives, but as said above, I now believe that veganism is terrible for the environment because I think that healthy vegetables and grains need manure for fertilizer.

    So, that said, we can agree to disagree on the human health aspects, tho I will add that a fat free diet cannot be defined as a balanced diet. I seek a balance of protein, carbs and fat, and find that the most satisfying. At the very least, vegans should seek fats from coconut, avocado and other nourishing tropical fruits.

  26. I do get it Joseph, but I did give you examples of slaughter free milk and noted that chickens you own can produce eggs without having to be slaughtered. Just look at how Indians keep cows and buffalo without slaughtering them. But the bigger question is, how to have healthy vegetables without manure from animals. I just don’t think its possible. Our vegetables explode into life with manure and organic blood and bone meal. Because if you avoid animals completely and rely on artificial fertilizer, you could end up just depleting the soil, and that can’t be good for anybody.

  27. Eric says:

    Mr. Ridley:

    Bill Clinton has been on a medically supervised purely vegan diet for over a year now, and is experiencing the best health of his life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPpcBMwLg2Q&feature=share

    Please read the book “China Study” and watch the documentary “Forks Over Knives” for good recent medical documentation on why a dairy free, vegan diet is the healthiest diet for most people.

  28. Maybe Hillary Clinton forced this upon him to curb his lust? Afterall, all the sex hormones are produced from cholesterol.

    Incidentally, here is our thorough debunking of the China Study: http://www.westonaprice.org/thumbs-down-reviews/china-study

  29. Eric says:

    Your China Study reviewer is a student rather than a medical doctors as are the doctors in the works I cited. And this is his bio: “Chris Masterjohn is a frequent contributor to Wise Traditions and the creator and maintainer of Cholesterol-And-Health.Com, a website dedicated to extolling the virtues of cholesterol and cholesterol-rich foods.” Seriously?

    Have you watched Forks Over Knives on Netflix? What is your review and feedback of that work?

  30. OK, Eric, I am happy to discuss the article I posted, so please state your specific objections to what was said there. Unsubstantiated personal attacks like that will only descend this thread into idiocracy.

  31. Oh my goodness, I’ve heard it all now. And you want to roll this out nation wide?

    I’m all for bio-dynamic herbal fertilizers and composting, and no doubt your links will provide great wisdom, but face it, composting alone is heaps and heaps of work. Far easier and economic to combine it with a herd of cattle roaming fields that are rotated between pasture and arable. Because note, that is what happens in the wild. Think of how America’s fertility (now lost) was a gift from the Bison.

    We recently went to a National Trust garden where they have some beautiful Gloucester Old Spot pigs, who were busy burrowing around a field, preparing and fertilizing areas ready for crops the next season. Instead of manual labor, they just plonk the pigs in a field and feed them scraps. Happy pigs, rich fertile soil, low labor and a fantastic source of cheap food.

    And remember, if you don’t breed these heritage breeds, they won’t exist, they will die out. If you really have compassion, you’ll understand that we must use them or loose them. On this planet all species operate with interdependence. They are dependent on us and we are dependent on them. So long as we provide them a good healthy life, stress free, then we are bringing life and abundance to the world.

    There is nothing more charming than a farm with animals peacefully going about their business, nothing more boring than an arable farm with only plants, where every bit of wildlife is hunted down or sprayed with insecticide to stop the vegetables or grains from being eaten. Nothing more dull and horrific than acres and acres of wheat or rapeseed. But every now and then, one chances upon a small family farm with chickens wondering around the farmyard, cows chewing the cud and my, my, if you get to a farm with happy free range woodland raised pigs, you will discover what heaven really is for an animal.

  32. Mike the vegan says:

    Phillip, slave owners made very similar claims in favor of keeping slaves.

  33. Slave owners and Feudal overlords did not let their slaves/serfs have livestock, because they knew that it would let them be self sufficient and wealthy.

    Infact, Jefferson said that Americans would only retain their freedoms so long as they remained a nation of farmers. Once herded into cities, unable to look after themselves on their own, they became dependent on consumerism and vulnerable to debt servitude.

  34. Luvourmother says:

    Composting is easy! Plant matter decomposes on its own, Just have to distribute it to the soil, just like large scale farms distribute animal manure to the soil. Large scale farms do have animals roaming around freely among growing crops, thats not sanitary or even plausible. If we are discussing producing food for people sanitation cannot be ignored. Also the links posted above about veganic farming also promote organic farming, veganic is most often organic so no need to worry about pesticides or herbicides.

  35. Of course you don’t have animals roaming around the crops! Traditional crop rotation involves a couple years grazing, followed by a couple years arable, and back again. If you will claim that grazing does not benefit fields, you are in a minority, here is a video about it the benefits of grass based agriculture: http://vimeo.com/26934587

  36. luvourmother says:

    Of course grazing is beneficial, however it is not necessary to grow an abundance of healthy crops.
    I’m sure that some vegans are fine with crops grown with animal fertilizers, only if the animals are treated cruelty-free and not used as a source of food. Harmony in nature is what most of us strive for, the current state of animal agriculture in the US and UK is appalling. The majority of the animals grown eaten for food are treated horribly and are produced on large scale operations (aka factory farms), where the priorities are only based on profits and not what’s best for the animals, the consumers and ultimately the planet.
    We don’t need animals as food sources, we don’t need to grow them for food, and we don’t need them to grow crops.

  37. I only promote humane, grass fed meat from small family farms. We spend a quarter of our weekends trekking to farmers markets to support family farms avoiding supermarkets like the plague.

    Please do not compare that with factory farming. This is the single most disingenuous activity vegans choose to engage in and it does your cause no good.

  38. It is the equivalent of the Collective Punishment dished out in the Soviet Union, where one person somewhere does something wrong, so everybody must loose their liberties. Many vegans claim that because some farmers are inhumane, that nobody should be able to raise livestock. Of course, its complete nonsense and only helps to damage the few people out there who care about animal welfare.

  39. Eric, have you ever consumed raw, unpasteurized, unhomogenized, unstandardized organic whole milk from happy grass fed cows? Because I too was poisoned by the supermarket version.

    So if you haven’t tried raw milk, you really can’t comment on dairy being universally bad, because these are completely different products. Everybody I know who once suffered lactose intollerance have thrived on raw milk. You may find that the case for yourself.

    I seriously recommend you try a batch from a good farm such as hookandson.co.uk who deliver raw, organic butter, cream, milk and buttermilk nationwide.

  40. Eric says:

    I also prefer to avoid ad hominem debate.

    I’m not a medical professional and am not going to get into a technical debate on scientific information.

    All I know is that veganism has made me healthier than anything modern medicine has been able to do for me, and that is a documented medical fact. Since going vegan, I’ve never been happier, been in better, more robust shape, or been healthier. Based on the changes in my life, I do honestly believe that dairy products are poison, at least to me and many other people.

    This recent blog article is very well written, may I suggest that you read it to make yourself more aware of the many benefits of veganism to millions of people worldwide: http://colindonoghue.wordpress.com/2010/05/26/do-we-need-to-eat-animal-products-for-optimum-health/

    This lifestyle is only picking up steam and is not going away.

  41. Tony says:

    I am fairly sure that Maurice Gibb never refrained from eating eggs and butter, meat even, didn’t seem to improve his condition much.

    With regard IBD there are two things I would be aiming to achieve via diet. Reduce the amount of sulphur containing foods in the diet, and increase the amount of soluble fibre particularly from barley, flaxseed and legumes. Soluble fibre ferments to form protective short chain fatty acids in the bowel, and these have been consistently shown in peer reviewed research to be protective against relapse of colitis, with Crohns yet to be determined. Sulphur containing foods are metabolised to form hydrogen sulphide (malodorous smell of rotten eggs) which is as toxic as cyanide and is damaging to the bowel mucosa mainly because of the inhibition of cytochrome oxidase.

    According to a 1997 report in Digestive Diseases and Sciences, foods that contain major amounts (>80 mg/100g) of sulphur amino acids or sulphited additives include:

    Whole cow’ s milk, Cheese, Eggs, Meat, Cruciferous vegetables, Sulphited wines, Sulphited dried fruit, Sulphited cordials

    Note that you can be vegan and still have a high intake of sulphur and low soluble fibre intake. So in Robin’s case, where there is a clear family history of IBD an optimised vegan diet might be the best way to go. Some medications aim to increase SFCAs in the bowel, but an optimised vegan diet may offer additional benefit with the right sort of foods containing soluble fibre.

    With regard to B12, there are many food manufacturers who add this vitamin to vegan foods with the amounts required in the order of millionths of a gram daily. Bacteria are cultured in commercial facilities and can make bucketloads of the vitamin efficiently without much in the way of resources.

    Those who have taken the time to study Livestock’s Long Shadow carefully will understand the myriad of problematic issues created by the high demand for livestock. It is 416 pages long, but contains a large amount of damming figures and tables.

  42. Mike the vegan says:

    People with lactose intolerance *thriving* on whole milk? Ladies and gentlemen, we’ve found somebody with a very strange filter for credulity.

    Considering cheddar cheese contains a tenth of the lactose of whole milk, at least we know you’re full of local, grassfed shit.

  43. Dear Mike, please pipe down, or we’ll have to begin moderating this thread.

    The reason people with lactose intolerance deal with raw milk well is because it has the digestive enzymes and probiotics necessary for the proper digestion of the lactose and casein. This, from rawmilkfacts.com

    Enzymes

    The 60 plus (known) fully intact and functional enzymes in raw milk (44)(45) have an amazing array of tasks to perform, each one of them essential in facilitating one key reaction or another. Some of them are native to milk, and others come from beneficial bacteria growing in the milk. Just keeping track of them would require a post-doctoral degree!

    To me, the most significant health benefit derived from food enzymes is the burden they take off our body. When we eat a food that contains enzymes devoted to its own digestion, it’s that much less work for our pancreas. (46) Given the choice, I’ll bet that busy organ would rather occupy itself with making metabolic enzymes and insulin, letting food digest itself.

    The amylase (47), bacterially-produced lactase (48), lipases (49) and phosphatases (50) in raw milk, break down starch, lactose (milk sugar), fat (triglycerides) and phosphate compounds respectively, making milk more digestible and freeing up key minerals. Other enzymes, like catalase, (51) lysozyme (52) and lactoperoxidase (53) help to protect milk from unwanted bacterial infection, making it safer for us to drink.

    Beneficial Bacteria

    Through the process of fermentation, several strains of bacteria naturally present or added later (Lactobacillus, Leuconostoc and Pediococcus, to name a few) can transform milk into an even more digestible food. (57)

    With high levels of lactic acid, numerous enzymes and increased vitamin content, ‘soured’ or fermented dairy products like yogurt and kefir (made with bacteria and yeast, actually) provide a plethora of health benefits for the savvy people who eat them. (58) Being acid lovers, these helpful little critters make it safely through the stomach’s acid environment to reach the intestines where they really begin to work their magic (59) (Above right, Lactobacillus casei).

    Down there in the pitch black, some of them make enzymes that help break proteins apart- a real benefit for people with weakened digestion whether it be from age, pharmaceutical side-effects or illness. (60)

    Other strains get to work on fats by making lipases that chop triglycerides into useable chunks. (61) Still others take on the milk sugar, lactose, and, using fancy sounding enzymes like beta-galactosidase, glycolase and lactic dehydrogenase (take notes, there’ll be a quiz later!), make lactic acid out of it. (62)

    As I mentioned way up yonder in the Carbohydrate section, having lactic acid working for you in your nether regions can be a good thing. Remember? It boosts absorption of calcium, iron and phosphorus, breaks up casein into smaller chunks and helps eliminate bad bugs. (I told you there’d be a quiz!)

    Raw milk is a living food with remarkable self-protective properties, but here’s the kick: most foods tend to go south as they age, raw milk just keeps getting better.

    Not to keep harping on this, but what the heck: through helpful bacterial fermentation, you can expect an increase in enzymes, vitamins, mineral availability and overall digestibility. Not bad for old age!

  44. Eric says:

    No animal except humans drinks milk beyond the age of weaning.

    No animal except humans drinks the milk of another animal.

    I’ll agree that raw milk is healthy – to baby cows. It contains everything they need to quickly grow to 1300 pounds.

    But why anyone would drink animal lactation is beyond me.

    It sounds like you’re as likely to become a vegan, based on all the evidence I can provide that it works for me, as I am to consume an animal product that my life experience tells me is gross and nasty.

    So I’ll bid you good day.

  45. Luvourmother says:

    I tried raw milk and dairy products made from raw milk before i became vegan. It gave me the same uncomfortable symptoms of lactose intolerance that pastuerized milk does. It might work for others, but it didnt work for me.

  46. Mike the vegan says:

    Dear Philip:

    Where’s rawmilkfacts.com? I tried typing in that URL and I got a shabby net-squatter site. When did you last access it, exactly? I’m going to take an educated guess by it’s name and suppose it isn’t an entirely independent and uninterested source of information.

    Do we have links to a peer-reviewed article in an actual research publication?

  47. Mike the vegan says:

    Ah, you left out the hyphens. Here’s the site you sporked your article from.
    http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/raw_milk_health_benefits.html

    Funny, the first reference on that site is to the URL in your name.
    You might want to look at this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_A._Price_Foundation#Criticisms_and_responses

  48. Mike the vegan says:

    Censoring my post doesn’t make it less true.

  49. Administrator says:

    Mike, your post wasn’t censored, it went into an automatic moderation queue, which I’ve only got round to looking at. Probably because there were two links in it.

  50. Regarding the Wikipedia page, it is disingenuous. Dr Price recommended a vegetarian diet prior to carrying out is study of isolated people to discover what they ate that provided them health. He was disappointed to find no healthy vegetarian groups. He did find one almost vegetarian group in Africa, which was subjugated by he meat eating tribes. We also see this in India, where lower castes are not allowed meat and become more docile. Indeed, the first promoters of vegetarianism such as Kellogg did so to curb lust. We now know that the sex hormones are made from cholesterol, so the diet is successful to that end.

    I’ve been reading suggestions that we have vitamin B12 from bacteria cultured in a factory. What a horrid idea! And that B12 will not be in association with all the other activating factors one would find in, say, egg yolk or raw milk.

    Other people are saying that no other adult animal consumes milk. Well, it is true that none are smart enough to farm and milk cows, but give milk to a dog or a cat and of course, they drink it! That argument is like saying that animals don’t have houses, so we shouldn’t, it is illogical. The issue is whether raw milk is digestible and nutritious, and we know that it is.

  51. Luvourmother says:

    http://www.notmilk.com/

    Questions for u Philip: who is Weston Price and why should we believe any information about his ‘foundation’? What are your credentials? Any kind of education in science of nutrition?

  52. Dr Weston A. Price was America’s leading dentist during the 1930’s and 40’s. He established and headed the American Dental Association’s research unit and had his own laboratory at his practice. He traveled the world for a decade seeking isolated tribes who demonstrated health, generation after generation without need for a health service. The findings of his research are contained within his seminal book, Nutrition & Physical Degeneration, which is available on Amazon, but you can read his book online here: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html

    My personal credentials are two postgraduate degrees in town planning. However, I run the London Conference after researching this information, which relies on the work of people with clear credentials. Here are people we have worked with to date:

    Sally Fallon-Morell MA, Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride MD, Dr John Turner MD, Prof Stephanie Seneff PhD, Prof Ton Baars PhD, Elizabeth Wells, PhD (DNN, MFNTP), Barry Groves PhD, Kathryn Pyrtle MA.

    I only promote what I believe in, and I really do believe that animal fats from healthy grass fed animals or wild fish are essential if we are to resolve the epidemic of degenerative disease suffered today. I do believe that a vegan diet is deficient in many crucial nutrients but do however believe that a vegetarian diet can be healthy for some with liberal quantities of eggs and milk (which can be produced without slaughter if you are so inclined), providing animals which will also provide manure to fertilize nutritious vegetables and grains.

    A plant only diet could potentially provide many of these things, but some things it does not, and others would require a crazy amount of calories when we can have almost all the nutrients we need in a daily pint of raw milk and a teaspoon of cod liver oil.

  53. Luvourmother says:

    A dentist with no credentials in nutrition or agriculture. Mr. Ridley also does not have any education in nutrition. When my tooth hurts ill take the advice of Weston Price, otherwise there is no good reason to believe anything he promotes about diet or nutrition because he is not qualified.

    The American Dietetic Association and the British Dietetic Association both support plant based diets for all stages of life as healthy and able to provide all necessary nutrients. http://www.eatright.org/default.aspx, http://www.bda.uk.com/.

    Dairy and eggs are not necessary to be healthy, in fact dairy contributes to many health problems (even raw dairy).

  54. Root Striker says:

    I therefore take it Luvourmother, that as you are telling us about diets and nutrition that you are a qualified doctor and/or nutritionist.

  55. Karen P. says:

    Thank you for such a concise and well-organized run-down of what’s plaguing the world. It’s sad that people like Robin Gibb suffer greatly due to misinformation. I’ve no trouble accepting someone’s ethical issue with eating animals, but for health purposes, the truth is that we evolved with animals as food and we can’t just decide to ignore millions of years of meat eating. Once we embrace that, vibrant health follows.

  56. Luvourmother, there was no such thing as a nutritionist in Dr. Prices day. Doctors and dentists practiced nutrition alongside their trade because they knew that nutrition was key to health. This was the tradition since Hippocrates stated long ago that all disease begins in the gut.

    The value I bring to the table? I bring together research from various sources, as do all other journalists. So you are better off trying to criticize my choice sources rather than my personal credentials, and the article is fully referenced. Incidentally, none of the vegans commenting have thanked me for bring raw fermented vegetables and the proper preparation of grains, seeds and legumes to their attention. I suffered greatly when I was a vegetarian because all the grains I consumed were not properly prepared.

    For a more recent dental nutritionist, who can cure bad tooth decay just with diet changes, check out Rami Nagel, his website is: http://www.curetoothdecay.com

  57. Luvourmother says:

    I am a student of dietetics and food science on my third year of study. I also have a B.S. in chemistry. Science simply does not support your claims.

    How do u explain the health of the over 100 year old lady (i linked previously) that has been vegan since 1922? What about vegan endurance athletes like Brendan Brazier?

  58. Luvourmother says:

    The American Dietetic Association was founded in 1917.

  59. It took the Dietetic Society a while to destroy medicine and separate medicine from nutrition. Medics now have about a day of nutrition training now. The dietetic societies low fat, high carbohydrate dietary guidelines do more to promote the products of commodity agriculture than to promote human health. They in particular promote products from the grain cartel. We are to replace animal fats with oils from, grains, protein and fats are replaced with starchy carbohydrates from, grain, and lean meat comes from grain fed factory farmed animals whilst grass fed heritage breeds produce marbelled meat, full of flavor and nutrition such as would have been approved by Mrs Beeton back in the day.

  60. Karen P. says:

    @Luvourmother – There will always be examples to support whatever argument we choose. It’s called cherry-picking. If you say a vegan lives a long time, I can return with examples of people eating their traditional diets and living a long time.

    Please look up epigenetics. It’s truly eye-opening in regards to our lifestyles. In essence, we are running out of the good genetic material our ancestors provided us. This vegan example of yours is benefiting from all the liver, bone marrow, and healthy fats her ancestors gave her in their genetic code. It’s time we start respecting that and paying them back by honoring what our body needs. Truly, deeply needs.

  61. Eric says:

    Mr. Ridley:

    I would love to see you write an article on the subject of why many meat eaters get so defensive about veganism, especially when it has been shown to really work better for some people than any other nutritional lifestyle.

    In your article, you might explore the tendency of people to believe that what they believe is better for everyone else too. And then you could discuss how attempts to enforce this tendency and belittle others who want to live their lives differently without harming others is the basis for so much conflict in the history of civilization.

    Peace and broccoli to you sir, and thank you for your consideration.

  62. Dear Eric, I will gladly accept your peas and broccoli, so long as I can melt butter all over them!

  63. [...] Phillip Ridley of The Economic Voice made his case in an article published last week.  Click here to read what he said. var OB_permalink= [...]

  64. John N says:

    This article was poorly researched and a disappointing read. I hope the author can educate himself a little better before stepping up again to write against the vegan diet. Also, the nutritional value of dairy products have long been under contention. I don’t read the economic voice regularly, and this article certainly doesn’t nudge me towards doing so…

  65. Infact, John, research is increasingly showing that unprocessed dairy from grass fed cows is highly nutritious. Just think what mother’s breast milk does for baby in the first year. I think you are tarnishing real milk with the same brush that you and I apply more appropriately to processed milk from intensively raised cattle.

  66. Tabs says:

    The article backs up everything I have been saying for years.

    Vegan bodybuilders? don’t make me laugh. and as for for Carl Lewis the vegans had better come up with a better example for athlete. Lewis was doped up to the eyeballs.

    Vegan science is pseudo science and that is why they have failed to win over the established scientific community with a few fringe scientists willing to back up their extremist animal rights baloney.

  67. Bernie James says:

    Meat is more nutritious than veg lb for lb, is there anything more to add?

  68. Indeed Bernie. And further to that, animal fats are more nutritious than lean protein and organ meats like liver, heart, kidney and bones more nutritious still.

    Would you rather eat a kilo of carrots or a glass of delicious raw milk to get your daily ration of calcium!

  69. Eric says:

    Hello again Phillip:

    Since you asked, more than adequate daily calcium is obtained from a balanced vegan diet including these delicious plant sources:

    Calcium in Foods
    food calcium (mg)

    Vegetables
    Broccoli, 1 cup, boiled . . . . . . . . . . . 62
    Brussels sprouts, 1 cup, boiled . . . . . . 56
    Butternut squash, 1 cup, baked . . . . . 84
    Carrots, 2 medium, raw . . . . . . . . . . 40
    Cauliflower, 1 cup, boiled . . . . . . . . . 20
    Collards, 1 cup, boiled . . . . . . . . . . 266
    Kale, 1 cup, boiled . . . . . . . . . . . . . 94
    Sweet potato, 1 cup, baked . . . . . . . . 76

    Legumes
    Black turtle beans, 1 cup, boiled . . . . 102
    Chickpeas, 1 cup, boiled . . . . . . . . . . 80
    Great Northern beans, 1 cup, boiled . 120
    Kidney beans, 1 cup, boiled . . . . . . . . 62
    Lentils, 1 cup, boiled . . . . . . . . . . . . 38
    Navy beans, 1 cup, boiled . . . . . . . . 126
    Pinto beans, 1 cup, boiled . . . . . . . . . 79
    Soybeans, 1 cup, boiled . . . . . . . . . 175
    Soymilk, 1 cup, calcium-fortified . . . . 368
    Tofu, raw, firm, 1⁄2 cup . . . . . . . . . 253
    Vegetarian baked beans, 1 cup . . . . . . 86
    White beans, 1 cup, boiled . . . . . . . 161

    Grains
    Corn tortilla . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19
    Rice milk, 1 cup, enriched . . . . . . . 300*
    Wheat bread, 1 slice . . . . . . . . . . . . 26
    Whole wheat flour, 1 cup . . . . . . . . . 41
    Fruits
    Dried figs, 10 figs . . . . . . . . . . . . . 140
    Navel orange, 1 medium . . . . . . . . . . 60
    Orange juice, 1 cup calcium-fortified . 300*
    Raisins, 2/3 cup . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48

    Source: http://www.pcrm.org/pdfs/health/vsk.pdf

    Thank you for providing this lovely forum where we can all share unbiased truth about the many benefits everyone can obtain from a vegan diet. :)

  70. Hi Erik. What you miss, is that fat soluble vitamins A, D & K are necessary for the proper utilization of minerals. When you consume calcium without vitamin A, your body cannot complete the process and this can lead to calcification of the soft tissues and glands, etc. And conversion of carotene is a difficult process for humans, particularly when ill or stressed, just when the body requires it.

    Dr Price found that primitive peoples consumed at least 1500 mg calcium per day (often much more). You can get this much calcium from 5 cups of whole milk or 7-8 ounces cheese and consume 800-900 calories.

    To get that much calcium from other foods, you will take in anywhere from 1680 to 4305 calories. When we don’t eat nutrient-dense foods, we have to take in a lot more calories to satisfy the body’s nutritional requirements, resulting in weight gain.

    PRIMITIVE DIETS: At least 1500 mg per day
    US GOV’T RECOMMENDATION: 800-1200 mg per day
    1500 Mg Calcium is in:
    5 Cups Whole Milk (1pint) = 805 calories
    7-8 Ounces Cheese = 900 calories
    40 Carrots = 1680 calories
    9 Cups Ice Cream = 2517 calories
    32 Chocolate Cupcakes = 4117 calories
    4.5 Cups Almonds = 4077 calories
    78 Slices Whole Wheat Bread = 4305 calories

  71. Eric says:

    Phillip:

    I get all the calcium and other nutrients I need from my balanced vegan diet. Sufficient doctors and other medical professionals and mainstream organizations have pronounced my balanced vegan diet to be healthful that I believe them and will continue on my present course.

    If you would like to see my before (your diet) and after (vegan diet) pictures and medical stats, and especially if you would be interested in posting a comparison of your shirtless pics to mine, I’d love to send mine, please provide your email address.

    P.S.: The average man is sustained by 2000 calories or less per day, and about 1600 for a woman. I’m astonished you are suggesting that 800 to 900 calories, or about half of a person’s daily nutrional intake, should be from ingesting dairy products. Are you sure about that?

  72. Per 100 g Apple Carrots Red Meat Liver
    Phosphorus 6 mg 31 mg 140 mg 476 mg
    Iron .1 mg .6 mg 3.3 mg 8.8 mg
    Zinc .05 mg .3 mg 4.4 mg 4.0 mg
    Copper .04 mg 08 mg 2 mg 12 mg
    Vitamin B2 .02 mg .05 mg .2 mg 4.2 mg
    Vitamin A 0 0 40 IU 53,400 IU
    Vitamin C 7 mg 6 mg 0 27 mg
    Vitamin B6 .03 mg .1 mg .07 mg .73 mg
    Vitamin B12 0 0 1.84 mg 111.3 mg

    I can’t recall the source for this. But I’m sure it can be verified easily.

  73. Eric says:

    Phillip:

    I eat some, but very little, apples and carrots. I also only eat a salad once or twice per week. So let’s dispense with sterotypes about twigs and grasses please.

    There are hundreds of vegan cookbooks on the market, and they contain a widely varied diet for any interest or ethnicity.

    I’m actually very athletic and need to consume > 3000 calories per day to maintain, and all my calories are vegan.

    From the source I posted above, these are some of the negative attributes from your milk:

    • Calcium: Green vegetables, such as kale and broccoli, are better than
    milk as calcium sources.

    • Fat content*: Dairy products—other than skim varieties—are high in fat,
    as a percentage of total calories.

    • Iron deficiency: Milk is very low in iron. To get the U.S. Recommended
    Dietary Allowance of 11 milligrams of iron, an infant would have to drink
    more than 22 quarts of milk each day. Milk also causes blood loss from the
    intestinal tract, depleting the body’s iron.

    • Diabetes: In a study of 142 children with diabetes, 100 percent had high
    levels of an antibody to a protein in cow’s milk. It is believed that these
    antibodies may destroy the insulin-producing cells of the pancreas.

    • Contaminants: Milk is frequently contaminated with antibiotics and
    contains excess vitamin D. In one study of 42 milk samples tested, only 12
    percent were within the expected range of vitamin D content. Of ten samples
    of infant formula, seven had more than twice the vitamin D content reported on the label, and one had more than four times the label amount.

    • Lactose: Three out of four people from around the world, including an
    estimated 25 percent of individuals in the United States, are unable to
    digest the milk sugar lactose, which then causes diarrhea and gas. The
    lactose, when it is digested, releases galactose, a simple sugar that is linked
    to ovarian cancer and cataracts.

    • Allergies: Milk is one of the most common causes of food allergy. Often the
    symptoms are subtle and may not be attributed to milk for some time.

    • Colic: Milk proteins can cause colic, a digestive upset that bothers one in
    five infants. Milk-drinking mothers can also pass cow’s milk proteins to their
    breast-feeding infants.

    Please understand if I’m more comfortable with basing my diet on modern science rather than your studies from the previous century.

  74. Erik. None of those comments about milk are relevant to raw, grass fed milk, tho I agree that they do apply to processed milk from factory farms.

    Regarding iron, sure, that is why we include other foods, including red meat.

    And regarding fat, unprocessed fat from grass fed animals is perfectly healthy. It has the proper balance of omega 3 and 6 and, unlike processed vegetable oil, or fats from factory farmed animals, does not cause any harm.

    Anybody who believes that green vegetables are the best source of calcium are badly mistaken. It is best available from dairy and bone broth. Yes, calcium is in green vegetables, but is is locked up and hard to get too. You are storing up problems for yourself if this is your sole source of minerals.

  75. Eric says:

    Hi Phillip:

    I’m a strict vegan and enjoy a delicious well balanced vegan diet that provides all the nutrients I need, although I do use a B12 supplement. My height is 70 inches, my weight is 170 lbs, my waist is 32 inches, my chest is 44 inches, and my muscles are extremely defined. My blood pressure is 96 over 60, my total cholesterol is under 140, my glucose is normal, and my most recent full spectrum blood test reveals that all of my vitamin levels are normal/optimal. I can complete the US Army Fitness Test in the 100% percentile. I’m 52 years old and most people think I’m 35. My girlfriend is 29.

    What are your stats?

  76. Hi Eric. I am most concerned about preconception and pregnancy regarding nutrition and note that the brain is 60% fat, that all the sex hormones are produced from cholesterol and that all the vital organs are rich in saturated fat. The body hoards saturated fat around the kidneys and other organs for a reason. Human breast milk is rich in saturated fat and cholesterol, for example. Therefore, to really test a diet, one must look at multiple generations. We believe that it takes three progressive generations of poor diet to result in sterility and chronic disease.

    I will therefore ask whether you were a vegan child and whether your parents were vegan.

  77. Hi Eric,

    I have been following this thread and I must say its been a real pleasure to ready civil yet intense debate between yourself and Phil…..

    Good on you sir and welcome to The Economic Voice.

  78. luvourmother says:

    Raw milk is illegal in many places.

  79. Thankfully, I can get it at my local farmers market. Am drinking some right now! Over here, only farmers able to sell raw milk are earning enough cash to stay solvent. Wholesale milk prices are horrific right now.

  80. You can find out where to get it at realmilk.com

  81. Eric says:

    Richard, thank you for your kind comment.

    Phillip:

    I was not a vegan child, nor were my parents vegan. But regarding my sex hormones, I can tell you from medical tests that my testosterone levels have more than doubled since I went vegan. As measured by ng/dl my pre-vegan testosterone was 340, and it is now 780. Empirically, I can tell you that my girlfriend seems quite pleased.

  82. jo says:

    i think some people can be vegan or veggie healthily…others cannot. it depends on your body type (and where you ancestors came from) i am a red headed so likely desended from areas that ate meat more than salads….
    anyway i was veggie in my teens, got sick. then stayed off dairy completely for years as it aggravated my IBS (but ate chicken and eggs) and started getting hormone issues from what i believe was the soya and lack of nutrients- my absorbtion was awful- i could eat loads yet was still underweight!
    then a couple of years ago i started reading about raw milk and not eating soya etc and eating for your body type (metabolic typing diet)… i started on raw milk 18mths ago (i can drink this fine!) and eating coconut oil daily and then this year started eating red meat again…. the IBS has gone (unless i eat fruit by iteself) my weight has stablised at a healthy weight for the 1st time ever, and i have 99% got rid of the chronic fatigue i have suffered with for years … i have energy again! :)
    no i cannot ‘prove’ it was these changes, but it was very closely linked to the same time as them!!
    oh and my husband has also been on raw milk for 2 summers and since starting drinking it has found his hayfever is 90% better than prior summers- he didnt need any medicines to cope this year- the 1st time ever!
    (just wish i had more time and understanding on how to make more broths and fermented foods… )

  83. Erik. Since the USDA officially adopted the policy of low fat diets in 1975, fertility has plummeted to become a terrible epidemic.

  84. Eric says:

    Philip:

    Declining fertility rates are attributable to an aging population, other social factors, and increased medical testing : http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9126/index1.html

    Also, USDA policy, which wasn’t followed much in the US anyway and was recently scrapped in favor of the USDA’s new “my plate” policy, cannot logically have any effect on low fertility rates in Europe and other parts of the world, also see: http://whitelocust.wordpress.com/avenues-of-western-survival/what-is-the-cause-of-low-birth-rates/

  85. The USDA’s dietary guidelines were adopted in Britain in 1983. Prior to then one could not purchase skimmed milk. And regarding your suggestion that people have not followed the guidelines, it is now a requirement that schools and other public bodies comply with the guidelines, so our children are indeed consuming USDA compliant diets for much of the day.

    An ageing population has nothing to do with the fertility crisis, which is striking people of reproduction age.

    The USDA’s policy was actually tightened when they moved to the My Plate policy which further restricts saturated fat and salt.

    The World Health Organization has adopted the USDA’s policy throughout Europe via the European Treaty for Treating Obesity and there is now a tax on saturated fat in Denmark and Hungary.

    Erik. Are you saying that government should tell us what to eat? You sound very much as if you are supporting tyranny here.

  86. Eric says:

    There is not a causal relationship between USDA policy and infertility, unless you are willing to also say there is a causal relationship because soaring obesity rates and infertility.

    Premise: a much larger percentage of people are obese than in earlier days

    Premise: more people are suffering from infertility than in previous days

    Conclusion: Obesity causes infertility.

    We can create extreme examples exploring the entire catalog of logical fallacies if you’d like.

    Regarding your question of whether the government should tell us what to eat, I have mixed feelings about that. I sold my motorcycle when the government mandated that I wear a motorcycle helmet, my feelings at the time were that the government had no right to tell me that I was required to wear a motorcycle helmet, a seatbelt, or anything else. The government’s reasoning was based on its argument that it would incur increased costs for people who were involved in motorcycle accidents if all riders did not wear helmets. That argument did not apply to me, however, because I had full medical and accident insurance, and if I killed myself or turned myself into a vegetable based on the Natural Selection period of my youth, well that was the result of my own stupidity, but it would not financially impact the government.

    Now, I go to shopping malls and other public places, and it appears to me that the majority of people are obsese, with huge mishapen stomachs and bodies. When I travel on airplanes, I see people who need to sit in two seats, because they can’t fit into one. The majority of these people have diabetes, heart disease, and are at high risk of stroke and have other extremely expensive medical problems based on their weight. And in Britain with socialized medicine, the government is in fact paying for the medical problems caused by that obesity. And we are paying for the govenrment. So why should I pay for people to live an unhealthy lifestyle? The solution is simple: if everyone was a vegan, healthcare costs would plummet, taxes would be lower, and quality of healthcare would skyrocket, because the healthcare system wouldn’t be overtaxed and people would be able to get necessary procedures in a timely basis.

    And in addition to improved healthcare and lower costs, if everyone went vegan, we’d also eliminate world hunger, solve our environmental problems, and end animal cruelty.

    The solution sounds obvious in this case to me: Yes, the government should tax unhealthy choices, the sameway it taxes cigarettes.

  87. Obesity took off since 1975 in USA and, since 1983 in the UK, exactly when the government sponsored politically correct diets came in. We believe that this is because the low fat, high carb diet promoted actually causes people to gain weight.

    Regarding hunger, you are completely wrong, because the most productive form of farming we know of is the mixed family farm where grazing is rotated with arable and vegetable growing. Grazing is very efficient, and when you plough grazed land, it has a massive reserve of fertility, so less fertilizer is required.

    Regarding animal cruelty, you would also eliminate animal welfare. We both agree that factory farming should end but do you really want there to be no farm animals at all? Can you imagine the landscape? Imagine a farm without chickens roaming around? Small family farms are the epitomy of animal welfare, on the whole. This concept of collective punishment that if one farm carries out bad things, that all should shut down, is complete nonsense.

  88. Mark Purdey discusses the environmental devastation that would result from eliminating livestock from farming: http://www.westonaprice.org/farm-a-ranch/the-vegan-ecological-wasteland

  89. The argument against government taxing bad things, is that government often gets things wrong, or acts on the behalf of lobbyists with the force of law.

  90. luvourmother says:

    The human body produces its own cholesterol, no need for dietary cholesterol at all, in fact saturated animals fats and dietary cholesterol contribute to illness such as diabetes and other cardiovascular diseases.
    http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Cholesterol/PreventionTreatmentofHighCholesterol/Know-Your-Fats_UCM_305628_Article.jsp

    Also FYI vegan diets are not dependent on soy and soy products, I have a soy allergy and do not consume any soy and have been a healthy vegan for 9 years.
    I also eat plenty of HEALTHY fats from avocado, coconut, nuts and seeds.

    I am an endurance athlete (similar to those I linked in a previous reply that was not posted…). I run, bike, swim, lift weights and practice yoga on a regular basis. I was never able to do these activities to the extent I can do them now when I ate dairy and especially when I ate meat.

    Did you know that vegans have on average 2-4 bowel movements a day? This is optimal digestion that most meat eaters cannot even imagine. My body works most efficiently w/o animal products.

    There is nothing in meat or dairy that cannot be obtained from plants. Science does not support the theories that vegan is only healthy for some types of people.

    Raw milk is illegal in many places, it is ridiculous that the author of this article keeps recommending raw milk when it is against the law to distribute such products. those of you that consider drinking raw milk, please also consider the legal implications.

  91. Eric says:

    Hi Phillip:

    My fingers are tired from all the Googling, but the 70 percent of US agriculture and 40 percent of worldwide agriculture goes into meat production: http://jewishveg.com/schwartz/livstock.html. So as a matter of causation, if our agricultural efforts were used to feed people rather than livestock, we would eliminate worldwide hunger.

    While I believe we would live in a much better world if nobody ate meat, I do agree with you that we should at least eliminate factory lifestock and poultry operations. I would not go so far as to require people to stop eating meat, I believe that properly educated about the negative health and other consequences of meat and dairy, most people would make the right decisions, and that would create untold benefits for our economy, healthcare, global hunger, and the environment.

    I have to go to work now. Speaking of that, I think you’ve inspired me to be an Internet vegan evangelist. How can I get a job like yours, I’d like to spend my days sharing my views while making friends and influencing people on the Internet.

  92. Eric says:

    Phillip, also, I didn’t want to think that I support USDA policy, I do not and think it is very misguided and influenced by big agriculture and factory farming. USDA policy is responsible for a lot of obese children, for example it promotes calories over nutrition in school lunch programs.

    As the poster above has also stated, I consume a good amount of fats in my vegan diet, but they are all healthy fats from olive oil, coconut, avocados, walnuts and almonds. What you seem to be avoiding is the distinction between healthy and unhealthy fats. The human body produces its own cholestorol, the problem is that many people aren’t able to eliminate additional cholesterol from meat and dairy in addition to the cholesterol their own body produces. Plant based diets contain virtually no cholesterol, so vegans like me are extremely healthy with low cholesterol and have about a 50% lower chance of dying from heart disease than meat and dairy eaters like you. I’ll cite to the link from the poster above.

  93. Erik. I do not promote the factory farming model of feeding livestock grains. I am talking about the grass fed version, which is very efficient. And hunger is caused primarily by debt, not farming methods. Third world countries are forced by the world bank to swap to cash crop exports to gain foreign exchange to pay off loans. A debt jubilee is the way to cancel out hunger.

    I am glad you agree that we should focus on getting rid of factory farming, it is horrific for human health and the planet. The main way of doing that is to not bail out the big corporate banks that fund factory farms! Your small high street bank is probably not funelling all its money into Monsanto, but Goldman Sachs? That’s another matter!

    Regarding being able to get all nutrients from plants? Not true.

    There are certain nutrients that are found only in animal products; first and foremost, vitamins A and D, found only in animal fats. There are vegetable analogues, but these actually increase the body’s need for the animal versions.
    Cholesterol is actually a nutrient, especially for the growing child, who cannot make enough cholesterol to ensure the optimal development of the nervous system and the gut. Mother’s milk is very rich in cholesterol and contains an enzyme that helps the baby absorb all of that cholesterol. For humans, dietary cholesterol is important, right through the growing years. And for adults, the cholesterol we consume is important for the health of the intestinal tract—these cells there are very rich in cholesterol and can actually directly take up the cholesterol that comes with our food.

    Usable vitamin B12 is only found in animal products.

    Other important dietary components found only in animal foods are the long-chain, very unsaturated fatty acids, called AA (arachidonic acid), EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) and DHA (docosahexaenoic acid). Later we will learn how important these substances are for the brain and nervous system.

    Then there are many nutrients that are present in plant foods but which are more easily absorbed from animal foods. For example, many plant foods contain calcium and vegetarians tell you you can get all the calcium you need from plant foods; but the calcium from plant foods is bound up—the technical term is chelated–in the food and is not very available. Your body has to work very hard, using many enzymes and vitamins, to get at that calcium. The only two good sources of calcium in human diets are dairy products and bones. In cultures where they do not have dairy products, they use bones. They either grind them into a paste and eat them that way or they make bone broth. Consider the Asians who do not have dairy products. In the typical Asian diet they have a bone broth with every meal.

    Zinc is another nutrient that is very difficult to get in adequate amounts from plant foods. Iron, B6, magnesium and copper are also difficult to absorb from plant foods. Copper is very important for the cardiovascular system. The best source of copper is liver.

  94. luvourmother says:

    If we cannot get necessary nutrients from plants why do my blood panels and health screens every year result in above average health? I have not encountered any nutritional deficiencies in the 9 years I have eaten a vegan diet. Please explain how this is possible as well as people thriving on vegan diets even longer than me. Where are we getting vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin B12 if we haven’t eaten meat in years? Why am I not wasting away and getting sick all of the time if I am not getting all necessary nutrients from plants?

    This is why, because there is more vitamin A in carrots and dandelion greens than milk. The list of vegetables and fruits that provide vitamin A is quite long.
    Vitamin D comes from the sun, 10 minutes a day in direct sunlight and vitamin D is covered, its the easiest vitamin to get because you don’t have to eat anything to get the RDA.

    Essential Fatty Acids are available in plant foods as well, like flax seeds and walnuts.

    Dairy is not the best source of calcium because it is high in protein content. Calcium is used to process protein therefore not absorbed. The US has relatively high diagnoses of osteoporosis yet the US consumes higher amounts of dairy than other places with low occurrences of osteoporosis. Why do people who drink more milk end up with a higher risk of osteoporosis?

    Zinc: 100 g of wheat germ=112% RDA, 100g dark chocolate=64% RDA, 100g of peanuts=44% RDA
    So many vegetables contain copper, like mushrooms, spinach, potatoes, and tomatoes.
    Already discussed B6 and how easy it is to get the RDA on a vegan diet.

    B12 is fortified in many foods like cereal. Most omni’s do not get adequate B12 despite the fact that they consume animal products, this is because B12 is a bacteria found on animal products not in them. Our food production systems clean away the B12 through sanitation processes (for your safety!). Omni’s need to be just as concerned with B12 fortified foods and supplements as vegans, the occurrence of B12 deficiency exists equally among everyone there is not a higher occurrence among vegans.

    Philip I suggest doing some non-bias research about dietary sources of nutrients. Even better would be to take a nutrition class or read a book about nutrition in the least. You seem to be very confused about simple dietetic science as well as extremely brainwashed by the Weston Price Foundation.

  95. Dane says:

    ^^^What she said

    Also B12 is only found naturally in soil. The only reason it can be obtained from animal products is because they are eating foods with B12 on them.

    Want to know the most natural and firsthand way to get your daily B12? Go pick a fresh tomato from your garden, lightly dust it off, and eat it. B12.

  96. Eric says:

    Hi Phillip:

    The UN and EU have called for the world to go vegan. I thought you’d want to watch this timely and important video: http://youtu.be/tQlekfaPyaA

  97. Even George Monbiot has reported that the UN’s figures used to justify a vegan lifestyle were fraudulent:

    George Monbiot: “I was wrong about veganism. Let them eat meat – but farm it properly” http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation

    The UN also call for 80% population reduction in their biodiversity assessment and the IMF is used to impose debt slavery and genocidal austerity throughout the third world, explaining why they still live in poverty. BBC reported on documents released which showed that this policy was a deliberate attempt to keep the third world in poverty.

    I don’t take anything that dictatorship says seriously. They just committed us to another bloody war in Libya, for example. They are tyrants.

  98. Eric says:

    Phillip:

    It’s a good article, but while Mr. Monbiot may no longer advocate strict veganism for all, he still argues for “much less” meat and dairy consumption.

    So I’ll continue to be a strict vegan, for proven personal health reasons this lifestyle is the only one that’s ever worked for me. If others choose not to do the same, that’s a personal choice, but I agree with the point of Mr. Monbiot that every little reduction counts. For example, if people in the US gave up chicken to eat vegan just one day per week, that would be the equivalent of removing the detrimental environmental effect of 500,000 cars from the road each year.

    Baby steps are fine, very few people can succeed with a sudden and total switch from a carnivore/omnivore lifestyle to a vegan lifestyle. The transition took me six months, and during that time I used fish as my crutch until my natural cravings switched from meat and dairy to plants.

    But everyone should at least try to replace one meal each day with a vegan meal. For example, instead of eating eggs, bacon and biscuits for breakfast, why not instead put a banana, pear, and blueberries (or any 2 or 3 fruits you want) into a blender with some unsweetened soy, almond or coconut milk and some flax seed with a handful of spinach or kale. You won’t taste the vegetables, but you’ll start feeling noticably better, and this may begin a transition process in your life where you will look and feel much better. You have nothing to lose by just trying to start with small positive changes. And it’s like your mom used to say, how do you know you don’t like it if you haven’t tried it?

  99. Brent says:

    It is sad when such ignorance can actually be passed as real news. This article is littered with out dated information, and blatantly untrue statements, next time we choose to talk about health or diet maybe we should cite our sources. Please do yourself a favor and read a copy of the China Study, or any other detailed article on nutrition, diet, and health, and next time you want to inform people on proper eating habits and the health benefits cite your sources.

  100. Randy says:

    Brent he has cited his source as Doctor Price. Can you read? any credible nutritionist would laugh at The China Study and why are you citing a fruit loop (pun intended) like T. Colin Campbell who is a vegan nut roast? (pun also intended). Campbell and his pseudo-science has been debunked time and time again. Brent if you like eating what your body was not designed to eat then please keep it to yourself some people might listen to you and become vegan and that would be a catastrophe.

    Natural diet 1

    Vegan diet 0

  101. Eric says:

    Someone really should do a medical study to determine why eating animal products makes people so closed minded, rude and aggressive. Phillip, you say you’re against war and killing people, could the first step toward that end be greater respect for animals?

    Also, as a strict and proud vegan, I really would bet that I’m in better physical shape and medical condition than any of the ominvores/carnivores in this thread, and I’d be willing to prove it with photos and medical information.

  102. dks64 says:

    Randy – “Dr Price” was a dentist, not a Nutritionist. The organization is run by a bunch of animal farmers, no s*** they’re going to promote meat/dairy. And the guy died in the 40’s, you think scientists of the last 10 years are less credible than a dentist who studied teeth about 80 years ago? That’s not science. Brent is absolutely right. Outdated and false information. Basic Nutrition classes will teach you a thing or two.

  103. Back in Dr Price’s day, nutrition and medicine were not completely separate, as they are now. And Dr Price spent a decade traveling the world taking samples of what isolated tribes ate along with detailed notes about their health, and he then analysed food samples in his laboratory. He determined that traditional people ate four times more minerals and ten times more fat soluble vitamins on average than the western diet at the time. He demonstrated that these were some of the reasons why isolated people maintained good health despite a lack of healthcare.

    He also discovered what he called Factor X, has now become known to be vitamin K2: http://www.westonaprice.org/fat-soluble-activators/x-factor-is-vitamin-k2

    He used his findings to treat severe examples of rickets, and other diseases which others could not treat.

    He was a pioneer in holistic dentistry, one of the first to come out against fluoride, for example. And a pioneer in palate expansion, given his research that dental deformities were caused by a shrunk palate resulting from malnutrition: http://www.westonaprice.org/dentistry/from-attention-deficit-to-sleep-apnea

    In addition, Dr Price was America’s top dentist, head of the American Dental Association’s research program and wrote text books for the Navy.

    To listen about his research, I provide a video from Sally Fallon for free here: http://www.vimeo.com/wisetraditionsuk

    Regarding sources, I also linked above to a video from Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride MD MMeD Neurology MMed Nutrition.

    Another point, is that I was not only promoting meat in the article. I also discussed raw fermented vegetables, raw fermented soy and, the proper preparation of grains. I have also discussed the role of coconut. Does that sound like a meat and dairy obsessed individual? No, what I am doing is discussing a balanced diet informed by anthropology and science. Whilst some folk may disagree, it is disingenuous to cherry pick and attempt to discredit by making personal attacks against one of my sources.

    and I’m disappointment that vegans responding to this thread have completely ignored by discussion of how vegetables and grains can be better utilized to aid digestion.

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  105. Eric says:

    New study from Oxford concludes that 45,000 people in the UK die from excessive meat consumption each year:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/excessive-meateating-kills-45000-each-year-2110289.html